Will the Kids Be Alright? An Interview With Dr. Doug Newton of SonderMind

The COVID slide—or COVID learning loss, as some people refer to the academic effects of the coronavirus pandemic—is just one consideration this back to school season. For parents of K-12 students, worries around socioemotional health also persist. 

In this podcast episode, we speak with Dr. Doug Newton—parent, child psychiatrist, and Chief Medical Officer of SonderMind—ahead of his free classes on adapting to this “new normal” and navigating an unprecedented journey back to school.

Brian Galvin, Chief Academic Officer at Varsity Tutors: I’m thrilled to have Dr. Doug Newton with us here today—the medical doctor and child psychology expert with a degree in public health from Yale, where he studied epidemiology, so I don't know that there's anyone better suited to help us understand what kids are going through and what their parents are going through in this crazy back to school season during COVID. Doug, welcome to the Varsity Tutors podcast. 

Dr. Doug Newton, Chief Medical Officer at SonderMind: Thanks, Brian. Really happy to be here. 

BG: Well, we're thrilled you're here. I get a little bit intimidated. You can probably see with scientific biographies, it's a lot to read. It's impressive. It’s funny reading your bio and then talking to you. The bio screams intimidating and then talking to you is welcoming, which I think is what you want out of someone working with kids and their emotions. So maybe let's start this way, as I may have abbreviated the bio a little bit. Tell me about what you do with SonderMind as Chief Medical Officer, and how you've been tracking what families are feeling and going through throughout COVID. Let's start there. 

DN: Well, that's great, Brian. So, yeah, first things first—definitely don't anybody be intimidated by a doctor, especially one that works with kids, and especially me, you know, I’m here to be approachable. And I'm really glad to be on this podcast and talking to you and talking with all of you. It's always really good to start with, “What do you actually do in a day? What is it that kind of keeps you going?” 

So as you mentioned, first, I'm a child, adolescent and adult psychiatrist. So I went to, for those that don't know what that means, I went to med school and then in training afterwards, I really chose to kind of further treat the whole person, both mind and body. Fast forward a number of years. A few months ago, I really had the awesome privilege of accepting the role as Chief Medical Officer here at Sondermind. It's a mission-driven, really fast growing behavioral health care company. And as such, because we're so fast-paced, my to dos or what I do in a day can change day by day or even hour by hour. And that's like, that's super exciting to me. I love that. And I also know because that fast pace and that variety really is because we're all trying to redesign behavioral health care and just make it more accessible, usable and for everybody. 

So at SonderMind, I lead a clinical team and this clinical team works with other teams to really build up more and better programs to support the needs of providers and clients and their families. And we really pride ourselves in getting people to the right care at the right time. And as you can imagine, since COVID, much of that is delivered through video therapy. 

Regarding your question about, you know, what's going on in families’ lives, right? Like what's kind of happening out there? So if I were to answer your question, I'd look at it a couple ways. One is through the data, right, through our numbers, but also talking to providers, which when I say providers, that's our therapists, prescribers and then our clients, which are, you know, the patients and their families. And we know that there's really been an increased demand for quality behavioral health services out there. I can also tell you that even in my own practice, because I have a small practice as well on the side that keeps me going, the kids and the parents are really struggling and especially with what to do with increased COVID cases and then, you know, obviously back to school this fall and what's happening. And what the struggle is, right, is we all know that plans can shift weekly or daily depending on what's going on out there in the numbers. And I can also speak as a parent myself. I have elementary- and middle school-aged daughters. I feel it as well. My wife and I feel it. It's stressful. I know you know what's happening. We don't know what's happening this fall. And you have to have a lot of contingency plans. In fact, we just had neighbors over for a socially distanced get together last night and sitting down trying to figure out collectively thinking gosh, what are we going to do because our school district has changed plans again. So I feel it acutely. 

BG: It is an incredibly turbulent time. One of the reasons we're talking now is we're about to launch into a series of classes that SonderMind’s hosting with Varsity Tutors on how parents should think about things. This is sort of the beginning of that conversation, throughout August, on Mondays, we'll be talking about different age groups. One thing that we've talked about offline is how every age group is going to behave a little bit differently for a little bit here. I want to run through the different age groups and talk about, you know, one, what they may be feeling and experience? And then two, of course, how can parents assist with that? So let's start with the youngest age group. One thing I've been pretty struck by is, you know, when you think of the percentage of a young person's life, if you've got a second grader, and COVID has been going on to a five month thing that looks like it will extend to a year or more, it's a huge percentage of their life in terms of socialization, in terms of figuring out what normal looks like and routines and things. You're the expert. I'm waxing poetic on what I think would be a challenge. What are some things that parents should be thinking about for the mental health and wellness of elementary school students that are facing—even after a strange summer—a socially distanced school year?

DN: Yeah, right. Great questions. It's funny you brought this up. We were again talking as a group last evening, and, you know, one of the things exactly that was brought up is this percentage of their life. Especially elementary versus middle school. And it's so important. And there's so much developmental change in all of these ages. But, you know, in the elementary school years, again, in their life as I was saying earlier, it kind of depends. Like, it just depends on what's happening this fall as far as state to state or district by district. Is it going to be back to school full time? Is it going to be some sort of hybrid part time? Is it all online? We are at times, I'm sure, feeling there's confusion, there's some anxiousness. There's sometimes feeling overwhelmed. So that's probably what your kid is feeling right at the same time. How you're feeling is oftentimes how your child is feeling. Again, they may experience it obviously very differently because they don't have life experience you have, but they're still feeling it nonetheless. So just let your child know that it's hard for you to understand everything that's going on. And, you know, it's okay. You may even feel a little scared at times, right? And it's okay to be a little scared, right? And it's validating for your child to hear that. And it really kind of gives them psychological safety to open up to you as well. So you can ask them things like, well, how are you feeling? You know, just simple things like that. How are you feeling? How are you feeling about what may be happening this fall or, you know, with your friends—do you feel scared for little kids? Some of you can say, well, we get those little butterflies, you know, in your stomach. Like, tell me when those happen.

Also, generally I think it's really important that we reassure them. That we as parents, that the teachers in the schools and everybody really is trying to figure this out and and we're just all there for them, I think just letting them know that we're all there to support them and we're going to get through this together. 

BG: I like that, to sort of be honest with kids, talk to them and let them know what you're feeling. I think that that's news to a lot of people, right? We sort of think that as adults we need to have all the answers. And I like that sort of honesty and transparency. I know it's dangerous to, you know, you're talking to medical professionals, to say, “I read a book on this one time.” 

But I was reading recently, we’ve got a daughter on the way, so I've been devouring child neuroscience and psychology books. And one thing that really struck me, if you want to speak to it, is they said that a lot of times the youngest kids, they feel angst, but they don't know what that feeling is. And so the inability to articulate it just makes it that much worse. And so when I was reading, that really struck me as just helping young learners, young people, put a name to their feelings almost makes it more tangible and beatable. Has that been your experience, too? 

DN: Yeah. Great. I think that's great. Here's a fancy word that you can say, that actually there's a term for it, and it's called alexithymia. It just basically means that you can't put words to feelings. Surprisingly enough, right, that happens to adults, too, right? So it's not just kids. But, yeah, developmentally, it's obviously much more appropriate in a kiddo to not understand what's going on. And oftentimes, again, back to the butterflies in the stomach. 

You know, it really is pointing out like, hey, you got a headache today or, you know, it's just pointing out that it might be happening in their body and having them tune to the physical feeling. And again, to your point, adding a name to it sometimes, whether it was anxiety or sometimes when kids have behavioral issues or concerns and they were acting out. And before they actually got to that point, we would try to help them with certain triggers and we'd call it like the red monster or the purple smoke or whatever is coming. And it was like, you know, identifying triggers. And it really allowed them to talk about and identify it a different way. But that's something called externalization. So it brings it outside of them so that they can control it outside of them and then bring it into themselves. So it really helps kids to kind of tackle it in a way that's different than saying I'm a bad kid or I'm the one who is always anxious. It's like, hey, we're gonna go at this together. And it's really a powerful technique, actually. And so identifying it, labeling it and then helping them kind of manage it is awesome. 

BG: I love that because it's actionable steps too. I think one of the things I loved is, you know, not to overhype the lessons, but as we're preparing for the lessons that are coming up, how many three step lists and acronyms and things to make these sometimes esoteric, sometimes intimidating mental health issues and feelings tangible and defeatable. So that's one thing I've loved about working with you. 

One more question on the youngest kids and sort of back to the idea that if you look at the timeline of their lives and the timeline of their conscious lives, this is a huge percentage. I know a lot of families are really concerned about socialization, about just kids learning to make friends or, you know, learning to get along with people different from them. What advice do you have for a socially distanced world? You know, that's something that we should be really concerned about. Are there things we can do to try to replace some of that natural socialization? And what have you seen and what have you been doing? 

DN: Yeah, that’s a great question. It's really highly individualized. Right? Like, there's going to be no sort of blanket, sort of like this is going to work for everyone or every age or every family situation, every child. Right? Because some kiddos, unfortunately, have preexisting health conditions and other things that you just have to be attuned to. And it also has to do, you know, with early living in densely populated cities or in apartments, or are you, you know, living further outside and you have some space. A lot of it is getting back a little bit to really being careful about how you approach it. Right? 

So I can speak to ourselves. So, for instance, in the middle school years versus our elementary school daughter, it's quite different. With our elementary school daughter, and for both, actually, we're pretty strict about screen time based on the guidelines and what's out there. But also, frankly, my experience as a child psychiatrist and just being really careful about how you approach screen time, honestly, something that's been totally turned on its head. Right? Totally thrown out the window with, you know, some parameters on it. So we let things slide. Almost anything that kind of enables social connectedness with family and friends. For instance, FaceTime, texting... our kids love to play this thing called Roblox with friends. And so it allows for socialization and building and creativity. We supervise it. Right? So there's that sort of supervised, you know, screen time. And I think that's important across the board regardless. But also, this gets based on the viral virus data in your area. But, you know, we've started to allow our kids to have more, and I think it's appropriate to have socially distanced, outdoor meetups, especially during the summer months—more one-on-one, but some more smaller group meetups too. But you really have to make sure that you trust the kind of distancing and making sure that they're doing things that we do and we say, you know, going out riding bikes, kicking the soccer ball around. For our older daughter, who's a middle schooler, sometimes we just go out and they sit and they put blankets out and they have a little bit of a lunch and they're out, you know, talking. Sometimes you just, especially kiddos, you just need that face time. But obviously that's six feet apart face time. Like I said, some form of socialization is really, really important. And quite frankly, Brian, the longer this goes on, I think we're all going to have to start making some calculated risk versus benefit decisions for our kids and for their social emotional health. 

BG: Really good. I love the idea of kicking a soccer ball around. Right? There, hand hygiene doesn't come into play. It actually maybe makes you a better soccer player if you sort of have that fear of touching anything with your hands, but can do anything with your feet. So we're all experimenting with the internet, which is full of great pictures and videos, of ways that neighbors are interacting. So that creativity is definitely our friend in that case, so thank you. You're a fascinating person to talk to about this, given all of your credentials and studies and experience and everything, but also given the elementary school and middle school parenting. 

I want to talk about the next age group now in middle school. I think we all know it’s just a hard time in general. So when you layer COVID in and social distancing on top of it... You know, I think all of us, kind of most of us, at least remember middle school was a tough time socially. All of a sudden there was, you know, their social strata you need to fit into, your groups of friends change and there's cliques and all those kinds of things. What have you been hearing from families and what have you seen in your own? And what kind of advice do you have for navigating that tricky social time of middle school during social distancing? 

DN: Great questions and the middle school years, as you said... I mean, it is so tricky. There's so much that's going on. It's that transitory period, right, where our kids are, really, they're not such little kids anymore. But they're not the big kids, you know, as far as high school. And that's just really tough. 

So I've heard a lot of apprehension coming from families. And to be honest, it's not just from patient families. You know, it's also from my own friends and family who are teachers, who are school administrators. Right. Honestly, I think we're just all on this grand journey together. It's just we're all trying to figure this out and everyone just has the best interests of kids in mind. I think that's just really important, you know, as we're trying to figure out all of this and as we're talking about this. Right. Like we're all trying to figure out if kids will be in school and the different levels of contingency plans. Like it's plan A or plan D. And so it really depends on the various scenarios for the school year coming up and, you know, monitoring and collaborating with school and teachers. And I find a lot of the families are really on top of that. That's super important to them. And, you know, I can speak for ourselves from the Denver Public School District that we get almost daily updates of what's going on. So I think that's great. So just a lot of contingency planning. And I think honestly, I think most folks are, frankly, hedging for online school in many ways. Like, there's gonna be this mix. But I think we're kind of all preparing, you know, for that. I think in those middle school years, that's even tougher in some ways. There really is that need. They want to have that independence. They want to get out there. You know, it does come back to, as we were talking just a few minutes ago, of looking at that risk versus benefit of some of that stuff. Do you trust your middle schooler to be able to get out there and socialize in a way that is going to be appropriate? Do you have the space to do it right? Do you have that opportunity? And I think most people do. Even if you live in a very densely populated city, there's always opportunities to get out and do something. Being able to do that now I think is really awesome. And so the fact that you can always have those, and again social media, but appropriate things that they can also rely on as well for middle school years and for that need socially. But just getting out, I think, is hugely helpful. I can speak both from the families that I see and talk to, as well as my own, kids just simply need to get out. And some of the behavior stuff that might be popping up seems to kind of down regulate a little bit when they just get outside and have a chance to move their feet, move their mind, move their body. 

BG: Yeah, being inside and hearing the same voices is one thing I've been thinking about. If you're quarantined with the same four or five people, sometimes you just need to hear a different voice from your mom’s. I think that's when parents were homeschoolers themselves for a lot of the spring. You know, one thing we heard is they don't respect me the same way they respect their teachers. And sometimes it's, well, they've been trained that their teacher's voice means this. But, you know, the next day, you will always, you know, show love and gratitude, appreciation. Your kid can treat you that way and feel safe, whereas with their teacher, they don't. And so sometimes just hearing that different voice means everything. 

One thing I love here, you say, is we're all in this together. And so we ask sort of, you know, is there a little bit of safety in numbers for parents who are concerned that their children will be falling behind academically during all of this or, you know, developed mentally during some of this? Is there any bit of safety in numbers that sort of you know, it's not like your kid got mono while every other kid advanced two months worth of math, science and socialization because we're all in it together. Is that something we can take comfort in? 

DN: Yeah, I think so. You know, back to the classes that you were talking about. It's something I must speak to a little bit in these classes, and I think you hit the nail on the head. This is so different than, you know, unfortunately, a singular kid that gets really sick and misses school for a few weeks. We're all in it together because, you know, we're all going to fall behind. Right. In some regards. But then that's the academic sense. But in the more positive sense, I think we're actually going to come out of this in ways that we will never anticipate. Right. Like, you can go back and you can look at other pandemics that have occurred. 1918, of course, comes up. We don't have as much data about what happened then. Because it's just, it's harder to kind of grasp. But really, the most recent, you know, one that you can kind of look back to, right, was polio. And people forget about what happened with polio. I mean, there were half a million people that died from polio in addition to everything else, with paralysis and so forth. And it targeted young kids. And so, you know, there's a whole generation there. Were there kids missing school? And it was scary. What happened around that? What they didn't have back then that we do have now and this is again, this transformative period, is education has got, I think, to change in ways that we probably can anticipate or it's going to be accelerated just like my industry. As far as behavioral health. Like we've always had televideo health, but oh, my gosh, you know, how much is that relevant now? Same thing, I think, with education. You know, I think there's going to be things that come of this. I think, yes, there's going to be that bit of a blip with regards to maybe standardized testing in certain ways. But I think we're all in that blip. But what are the other things that we're going to learn socially, emotionally, and innovatively out of this? And so I'm kind of a glass is half full guy. So I do think as hard as this is, I think there's definitely a silver lining to all of it as well. 

BG: That's a really good perspective. Even if it's not pandemics, but other sorts of tragedies, you know, floods and wildfires in California, we get those. And you know, I even thought back, we both grew up in the Midwest and you get those blizzards where everybody shuts down. And I've always found even just in blizzard response that everyone's nicer to each other in the days after a major snowstorm and holding doors and giving up parking spaces and things, because anything that we all face together sort of reminds us that we're all connected and that we're going to need to try to treat each other better. And so I think there's hope there, too. 

Speaking of treating each other better, trying to make good segway as your parents, we've been talking a lot about kids. What about parents? How do they treat themselves? Do you think of what's going on for parents right now? And I probably don't need to tell you, since you're living it. Parents are, you know, they're working from home, and so they're adjusting to a new normal. Kids are around. A lot more kids have more angst. Parents have all kinds of apprehension about what the school year will be. You mentioned contingency planning all the way from Plan A to Plan D and probably more. I think parents are dealing with so much more than ever before and they have their own mental health and wellness and need to let off steam. How should parents be caring for themselves and their own well-being? All the while trying to do this for their students, too. 

DN: Great question. And it's so important, Brian, I can't stress this enough. That is, if you're a parent. And as a parent myself, doing a lot… We're all doing a lot. Now we have a lot more put on top of us, on our shoulders. And you have to take care of yourself before you can really take care of your child in many ways. That's that old analogy, right, of being in a plane. You put on your own oxygen mask first before your child’s. This is similar. And there was kind of a campaign out there, but I really like it, is check your head. 

So first check your head. See what's going on. Check in with yourself. Assess your own level of stress, anxiety. You know, again, all this juggling that's going on, there's less clarity with the calm. You know, like check in with yourself and stay connected. Like, that's the other thing. Stay connected with your friends, with your supports, and loved ones. In amongst all of this, all the stress and weight on us, there's also real effects of isolation and loneliness for a lot of people. And that just obviously adds or compounds things. But where you can, carving out time for yourself to relax, rejuvenate, exercise. You know, finding ways to get back into routines. We all hear about how 30 minutes a day of low impact exercise is really good for the heart and stuff. What's good for the mind? And, you know, again, it's that mind-body connection. There's a ton of studies that show about stress relief and even just 30 minutes a day of, you know, relatively vigorous or low impact exercise can do a lot. So, again, back to doing good for yourself. And I think this is a really important point, too, is if you've done all of this right and you've got so much on your plate and you're doing the best you can, you're reaching out for support, but you're still struggling emotionally. Please reach out for folks out there. Oftentimes when people are stressed or feeling down, guilt and shame comes, and “I should just be able to handle this.” Well, if you can't, that's OK. Right? You've done the best you can. But if you need to, reach out for professional help. There are a lot of folks out there, especially now, that can be there and be more available and accessible to you for telehealth like we're doing at SonderMind. So just do what you can. Get out there, do it. But, you know, if you're struggling and you just can't get through it, there's help. 

BG: And what I hear you saying a little bit, too, if we can even take you back in the conversation is, you know, we talked about helping kids articulate what they're feeling. Put a name to it. I forget the scientific term you told me, but it started with an “a”. But, you know, helping kids put words to it and all that, I think, you know, at the same time goes for adults and parents. That, you know, sometimes we just need to talk to someone to be able to sort of make our abstract angst and feelings concrete enough that then we can realize we can tackle them. And so I think, you know, just the art of taking time to express it and get it out there oftentimes is a huge first step. 

So, all right. So parents will keep going up the ladder. This is one you and I have talked about quite a bit, which I think is amazing. We all think of our high school years as maybe you get a driver's license, you know, you're playing, you know, sports that are now you know, you're facing teams from across town and other parts of the state. Your world really expands. You know, when you're really young, you're basically limited to where your school bus takes you, where you can ride a bike to, where your parents will drop you off if you have a friend that lives farther away. All of a sudden, in high school, you're supposed to be able to be on the move and be independent and, you know, elective classes and broadening your horizons. Now we're telling these young people, now you have to stay socially distant. And all the while they've got hormones going crazy and you think about, I don’t know about you, but we both talked about playing sports in high school. You kind of get done with official sports practice and then go play pickup basketball. You were just always on the move and now we're telling them not to be. What's your take on, you know, just sort of the physicality and psychology of what teenagers are going through right now and that limited period where they're supposed to be expanding? By necessity now, we're telling them to contract the world. 

DN: Honestly, I think you're going to just put two words to it that I hear from teenagers and families is just this, you know, sort of it's uncertainty in the sense of feeling isolated. Kind of closed in in many ways. And again, something we'll talk about in the upcoming class, but with this uncertainty and some of the social isolation is what comes with it. Right. Like the anxiety and the primal fear responses. And what does that mean and what can you do about it? It can lead to behavior changes, right? It can lead to retention issues for some. Again, trying to refocus in many ways and kind of retrain our brain. Because especially when you had this, like, again, distracted focus or again, this heightened emotional state, like, it can really negatively impact our kids and especially teens, both physically and mentally. There can be little tricks and things that you can do to help with academic learning, but also kind of concrete steps that we'll talk a little bit more about social emotional learning. You know, some kids have heard about that, some parents have heard about social emotional learning in schools. But, you know, just identifying, back when we were talking about identifying feelings, building strategies around it, helping mitigate a little bit of the negative emotions are distracting from it. I say this all the time, like all of us, right, have like, so much emotional capital. We have a bucket that we can kind of draw from. And so much of what's happening right now is we've got all these little holes in our buckets, and especially now, where it's draining out. Like, where can we be putting things back in? So how do we fill up that bucket? How do we fill up that piggy bank? And I think, again, back to that negative versus positive or strength-based versus, you know, kind of deficits response. And gosh knows we have a lot of deficits right now. There's a lot going on. But how do we build into that and how do we, you know, how do we help? 

So much is on hold, as you said. So, again, I think the same thing for teenagers. You check your head, right. Like with teenagers, you know, am I feeling anxious and feeling worried? Right. Okay, it's okay. And then, you know, taking care of yourself. Again, we know that the sports aren’t out there. So what are some of the things they can do for exercise? Or how do I know that I've got a bunch of food in the house. You know, but not always the best food. Right. And so, you know, do I want to grab that snack or do I want to grab that apple? And sleep habits and just kind of some basic stuff that I know is not always easy for a teenager to do. I do remember those years, believe it or not. And for all of us, I think getting out of rhythm and not having those sports and other things around is going to be really tough. But you know, where you can, back to where we were even talking kids in general, the younger kids, I do know that certain sports and other things are doing some coaches and stuff or hosting like Zoom calls and social distance things. So if you're in a sport and hopefully there's some opportunity to connect with your coaches or your other teammates that you had, you know, previously or again, back to this, kicking that soccer ball around in a socially distanced way, again, having an opportunity, even though it may not be on the best list of diet, go and grab a socially distanced ice cream outdoors with a friend and who cares if that bellyache happens later, it's probably worth it just to get up and do it. 

BG: I like the advice. You don't even need to kind of think of your emotional piggy bank of finding ways to fill it, even if they are distanced, find ways to be social. Give yourself goals and things to accomplish, even if they're not sort of done the same way. So, you know, one thing, I don't know if this is a great strategy. I've been busy, I think, you know, both you and I have had, we work in industries where, you know, a lot of video mentorship and you know what we're doing, online learning. You're doing online therapy, mental health and things. And so it's booming. So I haven't had the time to do this. But I've been telling myself if I were 16 and socially distant and I didn't have this pressure to go to this party or, you know, have a date for Friday night or, you know, go to all these things, I would almost look at it, you know, as a relief. They sort of fall off the rails or they just do a thousand pushups a day and get, you know, fifty thousand steps and or whatever it is they just sort of commit themselves to. If I'm confined, I'm making the best of it. I'd like to think and actually do think maybe there is value for kids who have a lot of anxiety of you getting to choose who you are when you return. If you've always wanted to have more time to get into better shape or have better, you know, dribbling skills as a basketball player, you've got the time now. So that's I'd like to think, that the best version of my teenage self would do that. I don't know if you've had any thoughts. 

DN: Yes, I like to go on with that, Brian. I think that's exactly it. It really is a mindshift. You know, we can use a bunch of more fun terms. Right? Psychological scientific terms. But yeah, a lot of it is like, “How do you take charge?” Like, how do you in the moment, how are you living in the moment and able to take charge? And this is not just with kids. Right? Let's be honest. This is with all of us, adults as well. And it really is, it gets back to that again, not trying to be too Pollyannaish, but there's a lot going on out there. And I don't want to belittle it, minimize it. I know a lot of people have suffered a lot financially and may have lost people. They know, you know, this is a time that we can, you know, grab hold of. And again, if you look back to some of these things that have happened, I think, as you've mentioned, natural disasters and things, there's opportunities out there to better ourselves, to better our communities, and to just be kind to ourselves and to one another. And I think that's that's a big takeaway. 

BG: I like the optimism. This is helpful because I think so much of how we spend our time. You mentioned screen time. You know, a lot of growing. We vent or complain on social media a lot. You know, we see the news, all the numbers, the numbers aren't good. And any time we're looking at numbers, there's always one to be afraid of. And so let me ask you this also, as someone who really understands mental and behavioral health, really understands epidemiology, and I know in some of the classes will even talk a little bit about that. One thing I've noticed personally and I know there are a lot of anxious kids out there, anxious parents out there, you know, particularly parents wanting to keep their kids safe. I've been going out, putting a mask on, going for a walk, you know, here and there. You kind of, I think a lot of us have found that when you turn the corner in a grocery aisle and there's three people in it, all of a sudden you get that kind of fear of like, oh, no, there are diseases there. I found my wife laughs at me when we go out for a walk and she'll see I'm, you know, really quick on my feet to get 20 feet away if anybody in my line of walking. My eyes light up and I almost kind of see like, oh, no, there's danger there. How afraid do we need to be and what kinds of techniques I guess do you have or things that you're looking at socially, of, hey, if you're in this situation, you're fine. Here's when you should be afraid. Here's when you can kind of relax and sort of enjoy the opportunity to be outside doing things. 

DN: So let me put that other hat on of mine, the old hat. It's a really old hat now, Brian. That epidemiologist, that infectious disease, upbeat, happy guy. But that's a really good question. And in particular, I think now that everything's not so concrete, right, because we know that things continue to change. They're very fluid. Right? And it is dependent on those numbers. And it depends upon where you are in the country. There's some pretty clear guidelines around it. And so it's good that we have that opportunity, whereas schools, you know, it's less clear guidelines because it's just changing all the time. And in fact, I saw a recent article where they kind of looked at the top large, 10 largest school districts, and almost all of them are doing something different. If you look at the guidelines out there and if you look at the data, more importantly, it's not just the guidelines. Right? Because I know there's a lot of like, well, you know, things in our country going on around some of that. But if you just really, truly look at the numbers and you try to bend the curve that we're talking about, you're really trying to do the best you can. So short of locking everything down, wear a mask. And it's super important. It's something we'll talk about in the class. And I'll show a little graph for where, if we're all wearing masks in a public location, you have an extremely low chance of contracting COVID-19. And if you're wearing a mask and each person's wearing a mask and you're six feet apart or more. Even less. Right? It's almost zero, basically. You know, again, back to some silver lining. That's actually a positive, right? As long as you're, again, teenagers out there, maybe those that are going away to college, as long as you're not going and having a party with one hundred of your closest friends, you can still get out. You can still do things. But if you're wearing a mask, you're washing your hands and you're doing good hand hygiene and so forth. With that, your risk of contracting it, it's really low. 

And I think it's really important here too, Brian, as you also hear, right, like younger people aren't getting as sick. And that's true. But there are some younger folks that are getting really sick with it. And so you just have to be careful and you have to be mindful. Again, as we know, younger folks can infect the older folks that have health issues. And so, again, all of us doing our part, I think it's really important. And like I said, nobody wants to see this country locked down the way it was. And so we all have an opportunity in a relatively minor lift of just washing your hands and wearing a mask when it's appropriate. So I think those are just some really kind of simple takeaways. Again, sheerly based on the really, really good data out there. 

BG: That's helpful. I think there were those couple of weeks in March and in early April when, you know, even contactless food delivery, we were all taking to wiping down the pizza box before we opened it and all those kind of things that just sort of almost kind of seemed like anytime you open the door, a wave of coronavirus could sweep through the door. It's really nice to know that there are basic precautions that can help us live our lives a little bit more normally. You know, kids can get outside, parents can get a break and all those kinds of things. I really appreciate the optimism because I think we need some of that right now. The scientific theories I have heard, even just the art of smiling produces endorphins. So I try to do that a lot. And anytime we get a little bit of optimism, I think that's just got to help, you know, just our mood.

DN: One hundred percent, again, I think the theme in this is we're all in this together. Right? And, you know, this is not going to stop us. Right? I mean, this is hard for everybody. Yeah. You have to look at, you know, some of the opportunities and the brighter side. Someone said we all are armored up right now. We've got a lot of armor on and that's good in some ways. But the more armor you have, it just weighs you down. So you have to have that balance. And I think just putting a smile on your face when you can and where you can share that and it's contagious in a good way, I think there's really an opportunity. So let's be a positive contagion. There's an opportunity here. 

BG: That's perfect. It reminds me, I was walking through the parking lot at Trader Joe's the other day, I had a mask on, and I actually thought one of the great things about the mask, I was smiling ear to ear because someone had a vanity license plate that basically, I think said like, love Van Halen or something like that. I was going to say 2020 was a I love Van Halen vanity license plate. And I kind of thought that the mask, they can't tell I'm laughing at them. So I get to smile and I get my endorphins. They're out telling the world they love Van Halen, so they're happy. 

DN: Maybe this is a business opportunity, actually, Brian, maybe we should create masks and let's put smiley faces on all of them. 

BG: Doug, great advice. And again, I really appreciate the optimism and enthusiasm. I think, even if I don't have that mask, I'm still smiling big behind it. I think hearing that we have the ability or almost responsibility to be optimistic is great. Last thing before we go. We know it will be a challenging year, but I think if you told any of us in March or April that we'd be sitting here in August talking about how the rest of the year, maybe socially distanced or into the future, we would have been a little upset about that and probably wouldn't have thought that to be the case. So things will change. What resources do you recommend for parents and their students, mostly for parents, as they check in with themselves, check in with their students and probably face new challenges throughout the year? I think this is pretty universal advice that you've been giving us. But are there any resources you recommend people check in with throughout the school year as they face challenges?

DN: Absolutely. Again, it's starting with like, what's just some background information? Again, some stuff that even for these classes that I've drawn my information from as well. So, you know, anything from starting where we ended, around the CDC guidelines, and they have some specific things for schools and large gatherings. Knowledge is power, right? About kind of what's out there on the infectious disease side, but also on the social emotional side and where there's opportunities there. I think some general background to keep talking about social emotional wellness and learning. There's a great group out of Chicago that's called CASEL, “C-A-S-E-L.” They deal with social emotional learning. And so if you just Google that, they have some great resources there about what that means and being able to do that. 

Actually, UNICEF actually put out some really good information about social emotional wellness with kids during this time. So definitely UNICEF and the website there. And then if you need more assistance and more help, there's a number of really good resources out there and a lot of folks that are willing to help provide services. And of course, you know, SonderMind being one of them for those that are in our area, which includes not only Colorado, but a few other states. 

But, you know, just getting out there and if you need help there, folks that are there and willing to help. Definitely want to make sure to say that, you know. Yes, stay positive. Do the best you can. But don't be ashamed. Don't feel guilty. There's a lot of stigma attached to all of this, but now is an opportunity special with all the opportunities, with telehealth and everything else to get help if you need it. And please do.  

BG:  Great, well, good advice. I actually feel like I got, you know, free hours worth of SonderMind services talking to you. I feel a lot better already about some of my questions where, you know, you thought I was asking for the world. I was asking for me. So thank you for the advice. I really do mean it, a lot of the advice, it was really helpful for me. I feel a whole lot better, you know, about my day and coming week and all those things. Doug, thanks a lot. This has been a whole lot of fun and I think really helpful for a lot of people. Looking forward to cohosting some amazing classes with you. Thank you for your time, your advice, and on my end, most importantly, the enthusiasm and power of positive thinking.

DN: Great. Thank you, Brian. And you bring out the best in me, I guess—let's put it that way. So that's perfect. I really appreciate everybody listening in. And like I said, be well, be good to one another. Be good to yourselves. Thank you.